I've been a bit torn on the whole Sarah Palin issue lately. I spoke with several people about it trying to figure out why so many people who I thought wouldn't be supporters of a woman VP are actually staunch supporters of Sarah Palin. One comment that has stuck with me is this (paraphrased):
"Sarah Palin is a political leader and has many great beliefs. She is a political leader, not a role model."
Sarah Palin is not living up to her duties as a mother and wife according to scripture. Perhaps she is filling the role of Deborah? It is my understanding that Deborah's rule was a judgement on Isreal. In the video below Reverend Voddie Baucham points this out though Isaiah 3. The exact passage is as follows:
"Sarah Palin is a political leader and has many great beliefs. She is a political leader, not a role model."
Sarah Palin is not living up to her duties as a mother and wife according to scripture. Perhaps she is filling the role of Deborah? It is my understanding that Deborah's rule was a judgement on Isreal. In the video below Reverend Voddie Baucham points this out though Isaiah 3. The exact passage is as follows:
Isaiah 3:12
O My people! Their oppressors are children, and women rule over them. O My people! Those who guide you lead you astray and confuse the direction of your paths.
I have no doubt in my mind that our country is falling further and further from God. Perhaps Sarah Palin is our judgement? I don't know. I do know that Obama isn't who I want as my president. So I will pray for Sarah Palins family, I will pray for her good leadership, I will pray for our country, and I will pray for mercy.
Maybe you agree or disagree with me? I'd like to hear YOUR thoughts on this. Please, feel free to leave a comment.
Update:
I've been reading a bit more on this subject lately and have found a couple of great blog posts and thought I'd share them here.
Joyfully Home: Ten Reasons Why I don't Want to be VP when I "Grow Up"
Generation Cedar: Sarah Palin..Yeah, I'm Going There
Update:
I've been reading a bit more on this subject lately and have found a couple of great blog posts and thought I'd share them here.
Joyfully Home: Ten Reasons Why I don't Want to be VP when I "Grow Up"
Generation Cedar: Sarah Palin..Yeah, I'm Going There
18 comments:
I guess I will be the first to challenge you. Why can she not fulfill both her role as a wife and mother in a biblical sense and also be a national leader? I don't read that verse the same way that you do - that women rule over their people in a literal sense. From what I've read and heard of Palin, it is possible (even likely) she is a true believer. I agree with her policies. I think she has common sense and leadership ability. I'm excited to see her in a national political role and support her as such.
That was a very polarizing debate presented briefly in the clip from CNN. Thanks for sharing it.
I think that if in our culture we followed Scripture, no, women should not be in a position of leadership over men. It is something that has been very subtly changing this country (and the rest of the world) ever since women joined the workforce. Before WWII, women were not involved in politics (in this country at least) the way they are now. The reasons/excuses for the shift in the workplace are very legitimate... Nowadays it often takes two wages to provide enough for a household to live on. This might be a result of the materialistic society we live in. I can't talk much here... I like my toys!
But back to the main point, while I think that according to Scripture, she ought not to be running, the fact is that there is no difference between her being VP of the USA, or her being governor of Alaska, or any other woman being a CEO or a supervisor. True, she is an example to the rest of the country and for that sake, there is more weight to the precedent she sets. As an example to the rest of mothers, yes, her place should be in rearing her family at home in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. In today's culture though, I don't see it as being fair to overly criticize her for her position of leadership any more than any other woman in leadership. After all, McCain was the one who picked her; she wasn't running on her own. (Yes, I know she could have refused his offer, and she did run for governor.)
So, I guess I'm running down the middle of the road. No, she shouldn't be running, but she's right in line as far as her moral and political beliefs go, and since she is running, she's got my vote. And I guess McCain can have mine too since he's on the same ticket!
Thank you for you and your mom (in her email 1-2 weeks past) having brought this up. I really didn't give it any thought until now.
I'm still working thru that series, Steve, so I may still change my mind ;-) . . . but I wanted to point out that the Bible specifically talks about women submitting to THEIR HUSBANDS and they are not to have a leadership position in the CHURCH. Does that then extend to every other realm, such as the workforce or politics?
Annette;
Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
One of the points MacArthur makes in his series on the Fulfilled Family is that when a person is working, they must submit to their boss. Their schedule, duties, and performance at work is the act of them submitting to their bosses will. A wife who is out in the work force is not only submitting to her husband, but to potentially another Man. Is this wife then submitting in everything to her husband? I would tend to agree with MacArthur when he says they are not.
Proverbs 31:23
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
A wife who is working for another man brings that man "respect at the city gates." In other words, she is working for her bosses betterment, not her husbands. Her work, her efforts, her very labor, raises up not her husband, but her boss. This is another point MacArthur made in the Fulfilled Family series which really makes a lot of sense to me.
Titus 2:2-5
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,
4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
Here again it points out that wives are to be subject to "their own husbands." By stating that they are to be subject to their own husbands, this seems to me that it puts emphasis that they are not to be subject to another persons husband. For example, a boss at work.
Additionally, this passage also points out that women are to be workers at home. I'd like to find out more about how the original translation reads... but based on this NAS translation it states that wives should be workers at home... which to me is different that workers from home. I myself am a worker who works from home. I thought that I may be splitting hairs, so I checked out some other translations:
King James Version: Titus 2:5
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
New King James Version: Titus 2:5
5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
New International Version: Titus 2:5
5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
All the translations seem to agree that wives should be good home keepers.
So, to answer your question. Does a wife's submission extend to every other realm including the workforce or politics? I would say yes... in the sense that a Christian wife must submit to her husband in everything, as the scripture points out more than once.
I was once asked this question:
"If your wife was educated and capable of making $70,000 per year, and I was only able to bring home $35,000 per year, would I be a 'stay-at-home-Dad' and let my wife work?"
My answer to that is No. I would be delighted my wife was so educated, but I would not expect nor want her to be the provider for the family. This does not come easy to me. Like many others, I enjoy my "toys." It would be a challenge to accept that my wife, who according to scripture should be a home maker, is capable of more than doubling our income, and yet isn't. However, accepting today's societal mandates that we need a double-income family to survive isn't right. I will chose instead to put my faith in God, follow his guidance, and accept his guidelines for my family.
The wife is a home keeper, and the husband is a provider. After all, that is the husbands job, duty, and role as outlined by scripture. From the very beginning of the Word, at the fall of man, the gender roles were outlined.
Woman's Role:
Genesis 3:16
6 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
Man's Role:
Genesis 3:17-19
17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
David O-San;
You said:
"The reasons/excuses for the shift in the workplace are very legitimate"
I disagree. I think the reasons for the shift in the workplace are not legitimate, according to scripture. However, you are right when you say:
"It is something that has been very subtly changing this country"
Except, I don't think it's been a very subtle change. This country was founded on Christian beliefs. Early on in our history our society followed very closely the mandates in scripture. Families where the most important institution in the country. Today that has changed. No longer is the family so important. With children no longer being raised by their parents, but instead by the government and other institutions (daycare, schools, etc), the American family is falling apart.
MacArthur points out many times that the most important institution in a country is the family. If you look at all the single-parent families, all the kids in daycare, all the working moms, and how little family guidance and discipline children are receiving, is it no wonder that our country is doing so poorly these days?
You said:
"the fact is that there is no difference between her being VP of the USA, or her being governor of Alaska, or any other woman being a CEO or a supervisor."
My response is, you are 100% correct. Sarah Palin is just an easier, and more obvious example. She's in the spotlight. Furthermore... my understanding on this subject (Family & Gender roles) has been changing a lot lately. I've really been studying the scripture with regards to my position as a husband, and the expectations I should have (and not have) of my wife and children. Furthermore, Sarah Palin has been a hot topic of conversation, so it's easy to point to her because everyone is so familiar with who she is. I am not trying to single her out. However, the issues I'm talking about go far beyond one little possible VP. Neither do I mean to take away from who she is as a person, what her politics are, or to overly criticize her.
I disagree with one other thing you said above:
"In today's culture though..."
She claims to be a Christian, and I believe her. So, by her very words, should we not exhort her to behave in an honorable way towards God? As Christians we are not accountable to our cultural standards and morals, but to God's. Just because "in today's culture" something is okay, does not mean it is OK according to the scripture. It is to the Word we are to be held accountable.
Now... when it all comes down to it... this election I'm left with 2 choices: Obama or McCain.
Not voting is really a vote for Obama...
I believe a 'can of worms' has been opened ... the "Palin" issue is not a new one. I once heard that when God told Eve her desire would 'be for her husband' the meaning was more that she would desire to rule over him.
Speaking as a woman and wife... I would say that is fairly accurate. I must battle that desire on a regular basis and submit myself to my husband because that is what God has commanded. But what if my husband wanted me to work outside the home...do I submit? Yes! and do so as unto God... talk about a challenge. There are so many arguments about what submission is and what God intended. I believe that God intended for men to be the leaders ..in the home and in the nations in which they live. I believe this ...but as with Deborah ... we know that what God intended is not always how it goes. I believe that when women fill a place of leadership it is because men have failed to keep it. Can a woman lead and be a true believer... yes. Deborah is the example. I think it is safe to say that God uses these women to bring about His plans for mankind. IF we consider scripture then we must see that when women rule it is a judgement on a fallen nation...one that is not functioning as God had designed the people to function. This is what I gather from scripture.
Labeling Governor Palin as a "terrible" mother is making a judgment on her from a standpoint of ignorance. I can be a 'terrible' mother and never work outside the home. It is so easy to fall into this kind of judgmental thinking and labeling .. I know I fight it all the time.
I am not "happy" that a woman is running for VP... I believe it is only evidence of how far from the way God intended a family to be we have come as a nation.
I believe that if we all pray and seek God's will EVEN IN OUR VOTING we can have peace in knowing He will guide our hearts. EVEN when we find others have done just this and voted differently. GOD IS SOVEREIGN and on this truth we must stand and live! It is wonderful, for this Mom, to see the younger generation giving great thought to important issues. Keep seeking... God is faithful to His people.
Love, Mom
Two things really from my point of view.
One, Scripture also clearly states that it is not up to US to judge another, that is God’s domain. Hopefully, all we are doing here is debating which is the better ticket, Obama or McCain.
Two, Scripture is also clear that man is not complete without the woman. A woman in marriage is a partner, not a submissive slave. Women alone have been called to that holy calling of motherhood, because they alone have been blessed with the abilities to do so. No man can or should make ANY decision for his household without her input. Even God took one look at Adam and new that there was no way he was going to get the job done alone. The rib used to create Eve is a symbol of her place at his side. Remember it’s the devil that is under mans heal, not women.
I view having a woman as the VP as an excellent choice. An all Male government can easily forget about what has to happen INSIDE the home to make strong families which we all agree is the foundation of any great civilization. If McCain wins, then we will have a woman, right where she belongs BESIDE man, being his partner and providing the insight and perspective that only a woman can provide. We can all pray that this christian woman will be up to her calling and assist in restoring the family values that our country so desperately needs.
I'm just gonna jump right in, here!
When I was growing up, Dad was the worker and Mom stayed at home. Even back then, that was an unusual situation; a lot of my friends had moms that worked. Dad worked very long hours to cover finances for our family of five, so mom was thinking about going back to work part-time while we girls were in school, for some extra money. (Kimberly was in jr. high and Valisa and I were in high school, so she had many years at home before she and Dad discussed this option.) Because Dad was not home a lot, our time with him was precious. As soon as he would walk in the door, we would all rough-house, Saturdays he made breakfast, and we went camping a lot. Even now, I love just spending time with Dad. And having only 18 years of my mom's instruction will last me my whole life long. I am grateful for both her wisdom and Judy's!
As for me, I would love to have my own career as an architect, but I am also looking forward to being a wife and mother, Lord-willing on both of those. I believe women ARE called to be leaders, but leaders of their OWN family. Proverbs 31 says how a wife directs, controls and leads her servants. Because really, a wife is a manager in her own right! Budgeting, scheduling, maintenance, jack-of-all-trades! I am praying already that the man the Lord has for me will be one who wants me to stay at home and raise our children, who has good enough employment to allow that to happen. I would love it if I could have a small architecture business, run out of my home, but if I marry, that will not be my priority unless discussed with my husband. So technically, I would still be working AT home. (Steve! Splitting hairs!) My amplified version of Titus 2:5 says, "to be self-controlled, chaste, homemakers, good-natured (kind-hearted) adapting and subordinating themselves to their husbands, that the word of God may not be exposed to reproach (blasphemed or discredited)." And between my mom and Judy, I am going to be one good little homemaker!!
As for the Palin issue, being an Alaskan and living in Wasilla, I know that she is a Christian and I know that she is a good leader. I think that debate brought up some good points. Women do hold a leadership position in the church, but it's to disciple younger women. We are created to be subordinate to our husbands, and if we are un-married, to allow God to be our husbands. We are helpmates, cause let's face it... you guys need HELP!!!
I agree that men are called to 'consider' their wives. And they are called to love them as Christ loved the church. That is a tough command. However... if a wife has a husband that is NOT a believer she must still live in subjection to him... unless it is an act of sin he may impose on her. Is it a SIN to work outside the home? I don't think we can say that is true. But I do believe we have enough evidence in scripture to say it isn't the best choice. We must be careful not to judge another man and wife. But I do think that by discernment we can learn from them. IF a husband isn't walking with God the wife has a tough row to hoe.
I know one thing...that at 55 years old...and 34 years as a wife... I am a sinner SAVED by grace...and still have more to learn than I have learned and as years go on that is MORE obvious. I don't think women 'offer' men in leadership the balance they need by being in leadership WITH them....this isn't the 'best' it could be. But I believe God IS Sovereign and all that happens...in this government and anywhere else in the world is under this Sovereign Gods control...and working for HIS GLORY. Men don't need to have women leading with them to know how to lead ...they need to SEEK GOD to know how to lead and continue seeking until they draw their last breath. If they needed a woman to remind them ..then we'd have to say all single men are useless. Paul defies this example of course. Seeking God is the only answer.
My sadness in seeing Palin as a VP is because she IS a woman and because so many Christians think this is WONDERFUL ...and yet scripture very clearly shows that when women come to such places of leadership it is because men have failed to lead. We should not rejoice over this. The fact that Palin professes to be a believer gives me hope... and causes me to wonder at God's grace to us even in this place of sadness.
Love, Mom
Here is another really good blog post, this one by Voddie Bauchman (from the video above).
Was the P31 Woman a Career Gal?
Thanks for posting that blog link Steve. That was well written. As far as Palin is concerned she is at risk as cautioned in that post, of putting her job ahead of her family. She has an unenviable balancing act, espcially since her job, if done well, also has a positive impact on her family and everyone elses.
Whomever wins the presidential race, those who pray, should continue to pray that our government and civil leaders will be inspired as were our nation's founding fathers, that we may still be, "One nation under God". That God may still, "stand beside her and guide her through the night with a light from above."
Leonard;
You made several points which I would like to respond to.
Leonard Said:
“One, Scripture also clearly states that it is not up to US to judge another, that is God’s domain. Hopefully, all we are doing here is debating which is the better ticket, Obama or McCain.”
I’m not trying to be judgmental of Senator Palin. She is just easy to point to as an example because she is in the spot light. I am using her as an example, not as a specific attack on her. What I have to say can be applied to all Christian families.
I think there could be two distinct discussions here. One potential discussion is about who is the better ticket, Obama or McCain. The Second discussion is: Gender Roles – The role of women and men according to scripture. It is the second discussion which prompted me to make this blog post.
Leonard Said:
“Two, Scripture is also clear that man is not complete without the woman. A woman in marriage is a partner, not a submissive slave.”
Submission and slavery is not the same thing. I think, from Genesis 3, that women tend to naturally want to rule over their husbands; however it is God’s design that the husband is to be the ruler and leader within the home. It is God’s decree that wives submit to their husbands, in all things. Submitting to her husband is not blind slavery. The challenge is defining this submission. I would again point to Ephesians 5:22-24 for guidance. I do not claim by any means to be an expert. It is my goal to learn the roles of the various family members so that I may be a better and Godly husband when the time comes. As the women’s challenge is to submit to her husband, so it is the husbands challenge to love his wife “as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.” It is our challenge, as men, to love our wives with an unreserved, selfless, and sacrificial love.
Leonard Said:
“Even God took one look at Adam and new that there was no way he was going to get the job done alone. The rib used to create Eve is a symbol of her place at his side.”
I agree that woman was created as a companion for Adam. However, I don’t think everyone is called to marry, as was illustrated by Paul. However, a woman is an excellent helper for man. Genesis 2:18 states that “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” Woman was created as mans helper in order to meet mans deficiency. Man and woman together are equals, and complement each other, and the role each fulfills is outlined in scripture.
Leonard Said:
“I view having a woman as the VP as an excellent choice.”
I’ll again point you to Isaiah 3:12:
O My people! Their oppressors are children, and women rule over them. O My people! Those who guide you lead you astray and confuse the direction of your paths.
Perhaps Sarah Palin will be an excellent leader. I certainly agree with a lot of her political views. I have no doubt she will do some good for this country should she get the chance. From my understanding she has done very well for Alaska. However, is it a good thing for a woman to be leading a country? It can be, as has been evidenced in the past (Deborah, as I like to point out so much). But what does it mean of the state of the country? I think it is not a good sign of the state of our country. There are many other indicators that our great country is not doing so well – but I think that’s a whole other conversation.
Leonard Said:
“An all Male government can easily forget about what has to happen INSIDE the home to make strong families which we all agree is the foundation of any great civilization. “
I don’t think this is the downfall of an all male government. I do think this is the downfall of a government not being led by God. I think that man will fail in all things when he no longer turns to the Word for guidance.
Leonard Said:
“As far as Palin is concerned she is at risk as cautioned in that post, of putting her job ahead of her family. “
I don’t think she is at risk of doing this… she has already placed her career ahead of her family. I agree with Voddie Bauchman on the career minded woman. Check out his post on the subject at the link above.
-Steve
Crystal;
Thank you for the comment! I really liked what you had to say. I'm so glad you had the time you did with your Mother. The Lord knows your needs and has so obviously met your families needs when he provided Judy to your family. It is great seeing such proof that the Lord is in control and knowing that He provides!
However... You know me and how I like to split hairs. I'm curious about something you said.
Crystal Said:
I believe women ARE called to be leaders, but leaders of their OWN family.
I would challenge that statement a bit. I would also venture to guess that you may agree with me? I agree that women should be leaders within their home, however it is definitely the mans role to be a leader of the home. Marriage is a partnership, but a partnership in which the husband is leading his family towards Christ and to salvation.
What is the purpose of child rearing?
To bring your children to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
These are my own thoughts and ideas...
Both the husband and the wife lead, direct, discipline, guide, and love their children for the purpose of their childrens' salvation... all under the provision, protection, love, and sacrifice of the husband... all under the direction of God through his Word.
Would you agree or disagree?
We are called to raise our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. God brings 'those whom he pleases' to salvation. Am I splitting hairs? Mom :)
Yes, Steve, I agree! You said it exactly right, "within" versus "of". That's exactly what I was meaning. Because Mom was home more than Dad, we naturally went to her even when Dad was home. She would re-direct us as was appropriate, but she was also never the type to say, "You just wait til your father gets home!" She took care of business, and some of my worst spankings were from her, not Dad! I think that women take over a bit if they are stay-at-home moms, sometimes to the point of ruling the husband, which I think is wrong. Both Mom and Dad and Judy and Dad have shown all three of us girls what a marriage should look like, ups, downs and in-betweens. Marriage should be the best kind of partnership! I think (I would hope) it's like the tide, coming and going, giving and taking, in natural progression. Instead of like a tug-of-war.
I also think the next generation needs to be forged more in the living room and less in the classroom. If you want your child to grow up to be President, well then, start young and raise him right! I fully believe that it is BOTH parent's responsibility to raise a child in the way he should go. I am a testament to that! I've had a few years recently where I wasn't doing the right thing, and God softened my heart and brought me back to His path. I have my parents to thank for raising me correctly, where the whole time I was in rebellion, I knew it. I was just to stubborn to admit it. There was a guy, and I was "in love", and that's a whole other story, but the point is I returned because of the Truth my parents instilled in me from youth, and God's redeeming grace in my life.
I also agree with you, Mrs. Morris, that God saves the child, not the parents. That's what Steve said, "a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ." So hairs are being split a little bit, but now I see where Steve gets it!
(Steve, I don't know if you know me or not. My name is Marisa Kobilan, and we attended Hillcrest for a while a year or two ago. My parents are Doug and Kathy, and I'm the oldest of 6 kids.) Anyway, I came across your blog, and I wanted to jump in and comment and say that I agree very much that Palin is not fulfilling her proper role as a wife and mother while performing her duties as a civil magistrate. I also agree that women ruling over a nation is a definite sign of a weak, wicked nation. Additionally, although she may seem conservative, she doesn't understand economics, doesn't understand monetary policy or the evil things the federal reserve is doing, and hasn't ever mentioned following the Constitution in any of her speeches (that I've heard). One of the reasons we're in this mess we're in today, is because our leaders simply ignore the Constitution. I'm certain she won't help cut government spending. And, just as the VP, we would still have McCain's very liberal behavior to deal with, since he'd be president. Over 60% of the American people are not happy with the two major candidates. That's the majority! If people would vote on principle, and instead of the lesser of two evils, we wouldn't be in this situation. There are better candidates out there. I encourage everyone to check out Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party. The Constitution Party is the third largest party. The only reason we don't hear of these people is because the media isn't allowed to report on them, and they're never allowed into debates. That's no reason to not vote for them! Voting for a third party candidate is not throwing your vote away; voting for the lesser of two evils is.
Here is a link on Sarah Palin:
http://www.persevero.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-sarah-palin-fails-to-meet-biblical.html
Here is one about Chuck Baldwin:
http://www.baldwin08.com/
I need a haircut...too many split ends :)
Mom
The last comment is the best! ;-)
Steven have enjoyed the dialog here. Myself a 22 year vet, 43 yrs old and married (21 yrs) with 6 children I could easily jump onto the wagon of the lesser of two evils. However, if both are evil only one lesser than the other then I would still be voting for evil. So to this thought let some smarter men give some advice.
"I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. Love not this world, neither the things in this world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in this world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father but of the world. And the world passeth away and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever." I John 2:14b-17
When it comes to our roll as professing Christians I agree the world doesn't dictate but the Word does, and so does our voting. God puts who He wants into office, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't vote, instead we should as His children show Him our faith in His ways by voting for righteousness not a lesser evil, and then leave it at the alter for His will to be done.
Doug Philips of VisionForum talks about our worldview in this way. That Christians should take the deserted island test. Meaning if you were on an island and only had the Bible what would your worldview be?
Thus would we vote for evil or demand righteousness?
Just my two cents, and oh I too am looking at voting for Chuck Baldwin
Jack Wilson
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